Karine Kazinian: To win peace is the most important Mrs. Karine Kazinian is a Deputy Minister for International Affairs of Armenia. She paid an official visit in Bulgaria to discuss the bilateral relations and the regional co-operation in South Caucasus. Mrs. Kazinian said that peace in the region could be hammered only via co-operation in an interview for CROSS Information Agency.

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Mrs. Kazinian, sincerely thank you for this interview for CROSS Information Agency. We are glad to have your visit in Bulgaria as an opportunity to discuss the bilateral relations. In your opinion, how the bilateral relations between Bulgaria and Armenia are developing? The relations between Armenia and Bulgaria have always been friendly. This comes from our past, our common culture and roots. That is why I can characterize Armenian-Bulgarian bilateral relations as having a very high level. Recently with Bulgaria becoming a European Union member-state we are viewing our relations with Bulgaria not only on bilateral level but also in the European framework - to have a friendly country in the European union with which we are trying to intensify our dialogue. We are trying to have good relations with as many member-states in the European Union as possible. If we have good-bilateral relations it would be easy to have a normal relationship as a whole with the European Union. If each country supports our endeavors and initiatives with the European Union it will help. With my Bulgarian counterpart we discussed the possibilities that "Eastern Partnership" is giving to the 6 member states 3 countries from South Caucasus, Belarus, Ukraine and Moldova. As I said, having in mind Armenian-Bulgarian traditional partnership and friendship there are many issues that we could discuss very frankly, very openly and with warmth in our hearts.

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I am for the first time in Bulgaria officially. I could immediately appreciate the warmth and the frankness of my hosts, my counterparts here in Bulgaria. We decided to continue the consultations between the two foreign ministers. In Armenia it has become a very important phase in our relations with our partner countries to hold these consultations at least, if not twice a year, then once a year for sure with our neighbor-counterparts that are important for us. The foreign ministers can underline which directions are better for the two countries to go on and the fields of co-operation to benefit both countries. That's why we appreciate Bulgaria's support in both the bilateral relations and within the European Union framework.

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Where the future main potential could be pointed out in the bilateral relations? Even with the world financial crisis I mentioned that the trade turnover between our countries already is about 140 mln. The main fields are transport, energy and co-operation within the "Eastern Partnership" that has four platforms. The fist one is about good governance and democracy. It is political one. The second field is energy sector. The third is about economic relations. And the fourth is for people-to-people contacts and culture. We have discussed these possibilities in the frames of "Eastern partnership" as well. It is a globalization period now. Of course, bilateral relations will always remain. We embrace the co-operation on regional level, I said about "Eastern partnership", and ideas and projects that are coming from regional organizations. The added value we can see with "Eastern partnership" is the help for the 6 countries to understand how co-operate with each other not only with the European Union. That's I have already connected bilateral relations with international organizations. We discussed the main issues that can be beneficial for both sides. We will soon have an intergovernmental commission in Yerevan, already the sixth one. We are preparing Bulgarian president Geogri Parvanov's visit to Armenia. My president was in Bulgaria in 2008. This year will be the year of the Armenian culture in Bulgaria. Last year was the year of the Bulgarian culture in Armenia. So these aspects I mentioned show that economic relations are going on. There is a big investment from Armenia in your mineral waters now. Multigroup company made a big investment in Bulgarian mineral waters. The trade turnover has become even higher despite the world economic crisis. So to summarize- political dialogue, cultural dialogue, economic dialogue, co-operation in international organizations and also BSEC (Black Sea Economic Cooperation). We were heading this organization for six months last year. Your country is heading it now and as a chair you are presenting your priorities, especially in energy and transport. If the borders are opened, then the co-operation on energy and transport will be broader and won't be dependant on one country in the region. You have to involve all countries in the region to consider a 100 percent co-operation in South Caucasus. We are working towards this - to make everybody understand that "Easternpartnership", BSEC and other organizations are not frameworks do discuss conflicts. These are frameworks to discuss co¬operations and may be via it we can understand how to solve conflicts and differences.

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The historical past of Bulgaria and Armenia seem to be intertwined. We would like to underline that there is a-well-respected Armenian community in Bulgaria. It is a natural bridge between our peoples. How would you estimate the role of the Armenian community in Bulgaria?We know we have big diaspora in Bulgaria. We are concerned for each Armenian diasporas, whether big or small how they live, how they are integrated in the respected country they live in. We don't have any concerns about Armenian-Bulgarian community. We know that they live in normal conditions. I was told many times when I was ambassador to Germany and Romania that "you, Armenians, integrate very well, you become respected citizens keeping in mind your Armenian identity". From inside you have this identity but you become a very loyal citizen of the respected country. The Armenian community in Bulgaria is not so influential one like in France, USA or other states. But still they are doing their best to contribute to the development of every field in Bulgaria they work in. Even if there are cases of bad behavior I hope they are not many. Of course, it is normal to have incidents with other citizens. I hope it is not the case with us. If there any serious cases we would like to be informed. We have signed a re-admission agreement to have this troubles put away.

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Mrs. Kazinian, what are the main challenges in front of the Armenian foreign policy, especially in the complicated context of geographical and historical issues? On what the Armenian foreign policy will rely on in this moment of a serious change in geopolitics? As you know South Caucasus is full of conflicts. The whole set of security problems is present in the region. For us the regional co-operation has also this value - if you have all the countries involved with the regional co-operation, it will help you understand how to resolve the problems. That is why the regional co-operation is very important for Armenia. If there were no the conflicts the area would be blooming. I am a little bit envy on the Baltic States. During the Soviet times South Caucasus and Baltic region were at the same level of development. But now they are so much ahead of us. We would like to use their experience, your experience, Eastern Europe experience. This will be helpful to us to integrate in the European structures. We think that "Eastern Partnership" gives us possibilities to come closer to the European family. We are very pragmatic. We are very realistic. We know we are not ready to become a full member yet. We also know you are not ready to accept us yet. But we are working for that - coming closer and closer to the European family. The two security challenges that are the biggest priorities for us are Nagorna Karabah conflict and Armenian-Turkish relations. There is a big progress with the Armenian-Turkish relation. I consider this as a breakthrough! We and Turkey signed protocols without any pre-conditions. I want journalists, diplomats, everybody to understand that connecting these two issues will harm the process. We don't want to make such a connection. And this is what we always tell to our Turkish counterparts - Hagorna Karabah is a completely different process; don't interfere. As I said, we don't put any preconditions. The genocide is a big issue for us. We are now very much criticized both in the Armenian diapora and in Armenia that we are drawing out from the recognition of the genocide.This is not true. The genocide is something no one Armenian can forget, i .5 million people were massacred and expelled. This big diaspora is a result of that. Because of the tragedy that happened it 1915. The Armenian diaspora would like to honour the memory of their fathers and grandfathers. We are not going to forget that with the Armenian-Turkish protocols. But we are not going to put pre-conditions as well. We are neighbors. We have to go on. Emotions should stay aside but no oneJs going to forget the genocide. It is a pragmatic approach to have normal relations with any country..I can't find two neighbor states without a conflict. I asked my Romanian counterparts then I was there who did they consider as the best neighbor state. And they told me the Black Sea. I think many of the countries in the region can say this as well. But we have to open the last closed border in Europe. Even Azerbaijan will understand that a co-operation is necessary however they are upset with Turkey and its withdrawing promise to have Azerbaijan under their protection. I am sure. May be I am an optimism. But I am sure that only by co-operation we could go on. If the people we happy under Azerbaijani rules they wouldn't protest and try to come out of their jurisdiction. They want the right to live in their ancestors land and to defend themselves.

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The wound Nagorna Karabah. How it could be healed? It is a difficult and continuous process. Whenever you speak about territories it is difficult to say a conclusion will come on the day after tomorrow. We are working towards it. If there is a presidential meeting it means that something very serious to discuss has come up. These 8 meeting that the two presidents, Sakrisian and Aliev, had already shows the progress. The negotiations are not going in a very open way. There are a few negotiators inside the process. Maybe it is helpful because if it comes to a resolution it will be publicly discussed it the two countries. We have to prepare the public opinion in both countries. Winning a solution means "concessions and then we will have to explain them to the public. The main issue is the status of Nagorna Karabah. There are a lot of talks that the buffer zone which is not Karabah property should be given back immediately from Armenia. But until the status of Nagorna Karabah is unclear it is impossible to do so. There was war. We won it. For us the most important thing is to win the peace. I love this expression - to win the peace. That's why we are negotiating. Only this way you can win peace. Not by war. If there is a war, we will be ready to answer back. But we don't want war. Some people say there is not so much progress with the OSCE (Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe) and suggest to take the issue to the United Nations. There are 191 countries in the United Nations. More than the half of them haven't heard what is Nagorna Karabah. In OSCE they know each detail of what has happened. It would be not a wise to move the issue to the United Nations or any other organization. The problem belongs to OCCE not to the United Nation. If they say there is not a progress we are not going to shoot at each other at least. We are talking to each other. This already is a progress. It has to be continued. But it takes times.

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You stressed several times the key significance of the bilateral relation with Turkey and Hagorna Karabah problem. How do you consider the Black sea policy as a part of the regional co-operation? SEC is a very important organization for us as well. We are land-locked but we are to be considered in because we belong to the Black Sea region. We had a very useful and productive meeting when we gave the chairmanship to our Azeri neighbors after our chairmanship. I think the member states should concentrate only on economic issues not on conflicts. Otherwise it is condemned to failure. Or it should be. My Bulgarian counterparts told me they would not allow conflicts to enter in the Black sea economic co-operation. It is about energy, economy and transport. We have to concentrate our efforts on that. The same is with "Eastern Partnership". Wherever I go to Brussels and hear from my Azerbaijani colleagues "no co-operation if Armenia is there" I understand we won't be successful. It is new initiative. Why we should not take the best of it?

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Mrs. Kazinian, you said very clearly for the connection between the bilateral relations with Bulgarian and the relations with the European Union of which Bulgaria is part. In your opinion, what should be done to deeper and strengthen the relation between Bulgaria and Armenia? In what fields we should expect more talks and common decisions? There will be a few concrete points. One of them is the co-operation in the transport field. We will have discussions to have direct flights from Yerevan to Sofia. Our ambassador very correctly added that we have only Czech Airlines coming to Armenia. The flights are to only to Prague and then to the other regions of Europe and America. Sofia can also be a connecting point to Yerevan and further to Europe and other continents. It is a very viable idea. We are going to discuss this in details. It will be both beneficial for Bulgarians and Armenians. May be the ticket prices will be lower. We have decided also to have business forums. Businessmen will understand better in what fields to work if they meet. My ambassador told me there are many Bulgarian goods in Armenia mainly in agriculture and chemical industry. Now comes the big investment in the Bulgarian mineral waters. It is good to have a political dialogue. On political level the consultations mainly are connected with economy. Only in the frames of high-level visits we could highlight the most sensitive-issues and exact fields we can co-operate. That's why to ask for a presidential meeting is not an aim by itself.

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You said we should go on without forgetting the past. But isn't it too difficult? It is not easy to forget the past. It is not easy for us, for the Bulgarians, for the Greeks and all the nations that were in the big Ottoman Empire as subjects to forget about exactest. If we want to come to understand the new realities we have to go forward without forgetting the past. Without forgetting the past but with putting emotions aside. It's time for a pragmatic approach, opening the borders and a co-operation. Germany and France were enemies for centuries. Now look at them. They are the best partners in the European Union. Of course both Germans and French would like to show their national interests as well but a world without border has becoming more and more attractive to anybody. If we had good relations with Turkey we could travel to Istanbul, they could travel to Yerevan. It is not a shame to have an Armenian church. They have to understand it. Why not going and seeing it instead? New wars would not bring anything. May be I am a bit optimistic. But it is good to be optimistic.